Ok, Yota... 1098 review...

[Desmo-Brian]

So I got a chance to ride a buddy's 1098S. Pretty cool bike with the following upgrades:

-Full Termi exhaust
-Kit ECU
-GP shift conversion
-Rear sets
-Upgraded slipper/clutch

I'm sure there's more, but it comes standard with:

-Ohlins front and rear (front is only the Street and Track versions, though!
-Brembos
-Marchenisi (SP?) wheels
-Blah, blah, blah...

Anyways, only got to ride it once in the last session on Sunday at Mid-Ohio. Needed a few more to dial it in as it had some issues I want to address next event...

First of all, I SWEAR John 9owner) told me it had a quick shift set-up. It doesn't. I screwed up shifting the damn thing probably 100 times. Never once used the lever as I just figured the set-up was dorky and blipped the throttle and pressed down. Figured it out about 4 laps to go...

I also was told the Brembos were so damn touchy that you'd eat road burger if you set the brake lever out far like I prefer. So, they had it set closer and it sucked. BIG TIME.

So, let's dissect...

Acceleration. Good stuff here. Linear and constant. No seemingly common surge you get with an in-line. Pulls like a tractor, but still likes revs even though you can be lazy on it. The gearing was semi close, but I could easily ride around the gearing issue. Top end was amazing. It was almost liter bike top end. Just kinda builds slow and then you are at warp speed pretty fast. With the whole "watch out for the Brembos" crap I was given, I backed off VERY early on the back straight and know it had more...

Clutch. The clutch was weird. Like I said above, I thought it had a Quick Shift, but it didn't. The tranny was notchy to me and almost jerky if I wasn't totally smooth. Not near as smooth as an in-line at all. However, once I figured the thing out late into the session, I was able to get it smoother. The slipper is BAD ASS! Pretty much like any of the other in-lines I have ridden, but honestly, it was so much smoother. I grabbed my downshifts all at once and popped out the lever expecting the big twin to pulse big time in the clutch lever, but it did it maybe a few times and was butter smooth. Makes life VERY easy and due to the upgraded slipper, it feels better than any stock slipper set-up I've ridden on an in-line...

Handling. There was a bit of an issue with the handling. Again, i need a day with the bike and for my preferences and how I ride, it wasn't that great. It went where I wanted it to go and I could move direction while leaned over similar to my race set-up, but a few things had me fighting a bit.

A bit of chatter in a few turns where I usually NEVER have a chatter issue. Turn 7-8 is a down hill right hander and it was chattering (slightly) there and to the entrance to the keyhole. Just strange spots, but could easily be tuned out, I think.

It also doesn't like to have you snap it up and change direction post apex. Coming out of turn one or onto the front straight, I will go out to the outside edge and snap the bike straight up to change direct on drive out. Typically, you get a power wheelie you can control and move with. Looks cool to all the kids, but is actually easier to do than both wheels planted and the rear coming off the edge of the track. However, the 1098 doesn't really appreciate this move. At least in the set-up John has. I'd snap her and she'd tank slap me. Not violently, but shook her head in protest. It also head shaked out of Thunder into the Carousel. That small right dog leg where you power out. It hated it there...

I think the chassis geometry needs adjusted. I think it may be too back biased and thus, a twitchy front under acceleration or the shift of load off the front... Not a big issue, but I really could gun it out of the corner like I prefer. Although the forks are Ohlins, I think they need revalved and different oil put in. I also think a bit of time, I can get the thing working better...

Brakes. Shit. They sucked. I was told by John and my buddy who rode it almost all day Saturday that the Brembos were so good and bit so hard that if I grabbed like I typically do, I'd eat shit. They had the lever adjusted closer to the bar to avoid a bigger pull and harder initial bite. This was shit. The lever after the first couple of laps was coming back to my knuckles. I couldn't adjust the lever on the straight, even though I tried, and had to come in and do a quick adjustment. Got one lap in with the lever out where I'd prefer and they were much better.

I'd say they were a bit better than the OEM calipers and set-up I have when I run Vesrah Supers. I like to brake hard and have a BIG initial bite. I do not like progressive bite and want it to hit when I pull the lever.





Overall, the bike was over $23k. That was in the back of mind as I really didn't care to toss that much into the Pea Gravel. So, I was gentle and definitely not running at a pace I'd normally run. Everything added to a bit of stress in trying to adjust to so much at once. I got somewhat comfortable with the handling quirks and shifting only to have issue with braking. All four fingers to pull the lever isn't a good choice for track riding.... But, I'd say it is a damn great machine. I've ridden well better prepped bikes that cost a pile less, but in all honesty, I think it can be set-up to be a razor-like machine. It has potential and I will try and do more set-up to get it closer to that point, but seeing it is so expensive and that it isn't mine, I really won't ever put it through it's paces.

Overall grade? A-

[flounder]

Good writeup.... you did however forget one thing which was..... When we were sitting on pit row and you turned the bike off and then 2 min later went to start it and yelled... "HOW THE HELL DO YOU START THIS THING" AHAHAHAHAHA :)

[yotaman88210]

Great write up man! If you turn it off, you have to turn the key back off and on again to cycle it once before it will start again. Some stupid feature they added on those bikes. As far as the brakes go, kinda silly to adjust them closer to the bars, that would totally kill the effect of them imo. I liked the huge bite they had :dunno: I guess it could be scary to some people tho. Thanks fro the write up man! Now you just have to get that suspension dialed in. I do believe there may be a service bulletin about the rear needed re-valving on some of the S models, also, when adjusting the rear spring on those, there is a plastic spacer that sits up top and they love to break. Tell him to go ahead and pull it off and get the aluminum one they make. I think part of the exhaust has to come off to remove that rear shock too. Kinda sucks. and now im rambling due to toooo much coffee.

[Desmo-Brian]

Honestly, the Brembos are better than any other set-up I have used. However, my 750's got the braided lines (typical) and the Vesrah Supers. I think the Supers grab as well as his Brembos...

They had the lever so it wasn't such a big pull. In other words, a lot of guys don't like it at the furthest outward setting due to when you pull, it is pushing much more oil and therefore closing the pads to a higher degree. Closer allows one to pull and not get as heavy a result.

It's preference, for sure, but I like hard bite right away and a really solid feeling lever with a lever set furthest out...

[yotaman88210]

It's preference, for sure, but I like hard bite right away and a really solid feeling lever with a lever set furthest out...

Yea, I dont like the lever in close either. But like you said, all about personal preference.

[flounder]

Honestly, the Brembos are better than any other set-up I have used. However, my 750's got the braided lines (typical) and the Vesrah Supers. I think the Supers grab as well as his Brembos...

They had the lever so it wasn't such a big pull. In other words, a lot of guys don't like it at the furthest outward setting due to when you pull, it is pushing much more oil and therefore closing the pads to a higher degree. Closer allows one to pull and not get as heavy a result.

It's preference, for sure, but I like hard bite right away and a really solid feeling lever with a lever set furthest out...

I have to say that after you bled the shit out of mine and moved out my lever, I liked it alot... I can see myself bleeding those things frequently this summer. I liked the hard initial bite.

[Dweezel]

Just out of morbid curosity, what makes a bike like that worth so much? I've never ridden a Duc, and certainly can't operate a motorized scooter to the degree you can, Lizard, but my question is; In all honesty, what makes that bike worth 2x a R1, GSXR 1k, or CBR 1k? Is the bike really all that much better, stock for stock? Even Stock with proper springs/suspension adjustments? Is there really an extra $10k worth of "one-uppance" in the Duc, or is it all in the name?

[NinjaNick]

No, it's not worth it Dweezel. It's like a Louis Vuitton purse, Prada sunglasses, etc. You're paying for the status symbol/name. :nono:

Oh I forgot to mention that I'd like to ride one, but not buy one. :D

[Chrisoh]

From what I heard is that Ducs are still hand assembled or were a couple years ago. Though I have heard that ducs require extensive maintenance for up keep, but know they are very fast. A racer in WERA has a 999 that pumps out 160 RWHP in his race bike on Race Fuel.

But it is also part of the name branding, but also some of the base parts on the bike are a bit better then the Japanse OEM stuff.

[Desmo-Brian]

Just out of morbid curosity, what makes a bike like that worth so much? I've never ridden a Duc, and certainly can't operate a motorized scooter to the degree you can, Lizard, but my question is; In all honesty, what makes that bike worth 2x a R1, GSXR 1k, or CBR 1k? Is the bike really all that much better, stock for stock? Even Stock with proper springs/suspension adjustments? Is there really an extra $10k worth of "one-uppance" in the Duc, or is it all in the name?

Honestly, I can't tell you other than the hand assembled part, but even the Japanese sportbikes like the GSXRs, R1s, etc are somewhat hand assembled. Not 100%.

This I do know. If I took $23k from you, I could buy a 2008 GSXR1000 and get it raced prepped to a point it would smoke that 1098. Basically, $11k w/o "dealing" on price and putting $12k into the bike. Suspension and motorwork is the biggest chunk, but even if I paid retail for most everything, I could do it and you wouldn't believe the difference.

Not taking away from the 1098 as in stock to stock form, the GSXR1000 isn't going to go as well as the 1098S will, but in reality, that's not what we're dealing with.

It's kinda like HD. It has a bit of mystique to it and with everything Italian, it costs more than normal things that are similar...

[Desmo-Brian]

From what I heard is that Ducs are still hand assembled or were a couple years ago. Though I have heard that ducs require extensive maintenance for up keep, but know they are very fast. A racer in WERA has a 999 that pumps out 160 RWHP in his race bike on Race Fuel.

But it is also part of the name branding, but also some of the base parts on the bike are a bit better then the Japanse OEM stuff.

Actually, that 999 with 160 rwhp isn't anywhere near what a prepped GSXR1000 would be. Hell, a stock 1000 has 160rwhp so, it is the same, but less. Now, take the extra amount he paid to get that 160 rwhp and dump it into the GSXR. The GSXR will destroy that 999....

[NinjaNick]

Actually, that 999 with 160 rwhp isn't anywhere near what a prepped GSXR1000 would be. Hell, a stock 1000 has 160rwhp so, it is the same, but less. Now, take the extra amount he paid to get that 160 rwhp and dump it into the GSXR. The GSXR will destroy that 999....

As much as I don't like quoting this guy I have to say..:werd: The guy is right on!

[Desmo-Brian]

No, it's not worth it Dweezel. It's like a Louis Vuitton purse, Prada sunglasses, etc. You're paying for the status symbol/name. :nono:

Oh I forgot to mention that I'd like to ride one, but not buy one. :D

The name part is certainly a portion of it, but consider these things:

-Hand assembled
-Ohlins front and rear (even though it isn't the TTX rear and the front is only the street and track forks)
-Wheels
-Digital full data gauges
-Ability to add some pretty trick electronics w/o much adaptation...

That's a good bit there. At retail, the forks and shock are almost $7k. The wheels a good $2k at least. The hand assembly is worth something, but I really don't care as the Japanese bikes are never known to be mechanically challenged.

Plus, the 1098s and newer Ducs are much better in terms of reliability anymore...

So, take the $11k price tag on a GSXR1000 and add $9k. You get the price of the 1098S.

It really isn't an issue in terms of price. What I have issue with is that a GSXR1000 is more powerful, easier to repair and get parts for, and honestly, is better out of the box... But, you tune these 1098s and I bet you can get them pretty decent.

I'm going to try and set-up John's to suit me a little better and see where I can get with it. We'll see...

[Kip Drordy]

Lizard

What's wrong with the Ohlins R&T forks? Besides the $10,000 FGR800's that's all they got. Would the 25mm cartridge kit perform any better?

[Desmo-Brian]

Lizard

What's wrong with the Ohlins R&T forks? Besides the $10,000 FGR800's that's all they got. Would the 25mm cartridge kit perform any better?


Pretty much. Let's put it this way... Mark Junge (owns the Vesrah team) had a Suzuki Rider's Developement team last year. The 600 they had used the S&T forks. They had their internals replaced and upgraded.

I think the valves and springs, etc...

Take a set of GSXR, CBR, Yami, etc forks and replace their internals with an Ohlins 25mm kit and you'd be better off...

[Kip Drordy]

Word. That's on my list of things to do this summer. What are S&T forks? Ohlins?

[gixxie750]

their was a 1098R at Putnam this weekend with many extras on it. I could smoke him on the strait,but he had a shit line through 10. I wasnt impressed,but it was fun to see one!

[flounder]

Word. That's on my list of things to do this summer. What are S&T forks? Ohlins?

Just get a 20mm ohlins re-valve with springs for your weight if your going to do it... No need for a 25mm kit for street riding.

[Kip Drordy]

Just get a 20mm ohlins re-valve with springs for your weight if your going to do it... No need for a 25mm kit for street riding.

I'm going to track it this summer, but you're right 25mm would be overkill for my level, but I might be able to get a sweet deal on a set.

[flounder]

I'm going to track it this summer, but you're right 25mm would be overkill for my level, but I might be able to get a sweet deal on a set.

What is sweet???

[Kip Drordy]

$500?

[flounder]

$500?

Where the hell can you get that... Hell I would pick up a set for that.

[gixxie750]

me 2!

[max power]

Saw a new yellow 1098 in CW today with dealer tags from Motohio?

It looked and sounded schweeet.

[Desmo-Brian]

Just get a 20mm ohlins re-valve with springs for your weight if your going to do it... No need for a 25mm kit for street riding.

No need for a 20mm for just street riding either... If they are doing track and street, just do springs and a Racetech kit...

[Desmo-Brian]

$500?


Better make sure it is a legit 25mm kit... $500 is stupid cheap. They range from $1100-$1700 depending on the kit brand... That's new...

You can buy a set of forks with 20mm installed from a racer for about $700, though...

[Desmo-Brian]

their was a 1098R at Putnam this weekend with many extras on it. I could smoke him on the strait,but he had a shit line through 10. I wasnt impressed,but it was fun to see one!

Sure it was an R with extras? They don't need extras as they come with everything...

Plus, even with a squid on board, a 1098 in a straight line should wax about anything other than a SS built liter bike... They have over 160RWHP as shipped....

[flounder]

You can buy a set of forks with 20mm installed from a racer for about $700, though...

Or less... hahahah I got a deal. :D:D:D:D

[kawi kid]

good write up. give a good idea to of what the experience is like to alot of people who will never get a chance to ride one :(

[Desmo-Brian]

good write up. give a good idea to of what the experience is like to alot of people who will never get a chance to ride one :(

I'll let you know how it is once it is set-up better...

[gixxie750]

Short video of the 1098r duc @putnam!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heb0V1cX01A

[Chrisoh]

I lapped a 1098 in the 20 lap solo this weekend at Nashville WOOT

[yotaman88210]

Short video of the 1098r duc @putnam!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heb0V1cX01A

Damn you wernt joking when you said short. ha. Compared to all your other vidds I was thinking short was gonna be at least 3 minutes.

[Desmo-Brian]

Was that an R? Was it Matt from Indy Ducati? Know he bought one for himself...

[owndjoo]

matt didn't get an R, he ordered an S. the R is too pricey for poor matt

[DarkDuc]

Because you just don't see one every day

[Benyen Soljax]

Because you just don't see one every day

HA! i have your plate numbers and im gonna go steal that NSX now! take that society!

[Desmo-Brian]

Because you just don't see one every day

You mean the NSX, right? There's plenty of 1098s running around. Not as many S models and certainly not very many Rs... Quite a few show on standard 1098s, though...

[Desmo-Brian]

matt didn't get an R, he ordered an S. the R is too pricey for poor matt

That's not what he told Reuben a week ago...

[owndjoo]

well shit, when i was up there before he said he ordered an S. he went to barber and rode the R for the dealer/press release, but the price was too much for him. hopefully he got the R though, since he was saying he wanted to put me on it for a few races...

[yotaman88210]

Matt DID indeed get an R... We actually un-crated it and put it together when I was there two weeks ago... GORGEOUS!!!! Bike

[owndjoo]

oh snap, he better still let me rock the piss outta that thing... AMA Superstock what!?

[FasDuc]

lizard, Nice write up, you WERA?


First let me address the brakes, i think your buddies' needed bled, the Brembos are far from shit and will bite you if you're not used to them. They are definitely race/track inspired and since you're a racer they're probably nothing special for you anyway.

I spoke with Jason Etter at the track last weekend, he told me about the supposed service bulletin from Ohlins that said the rear DU-511 needs re-valved for competition/track use. I then spoke with Matt Carr yesterday and he stated that he has yet to see a service bulletin but that re-valving the shock would in effect make it a DU-515, giving it a bit more high speed damping.

As for the head shake it sounds like you needed some more preload in the rear and/or the ride height raised. The forks are also sensitive to rebound damping, taking a bit out probably would have settled the bike during transition and setting up for corners. I was having some of the same issues in the esses setting up for the keyhole but after Jason tweaked it a bit she settled down.

As for the question of is it worth it, that's obviously subjective. Can you get another bike cheaper and tune it to be faster on the track? No doubt, but for someone who mostly rides on the street with the occasional track day it's more about the overall performance and i must admit the Ducati name.

[Benyen Soljax]

As for the question of is it worth it, that's obviously subjective. Can you get another bike cheaper and tune it to be faster on the track? No doubt, but for someone who mostly rides on the street with the occasional track day it's more about the overall performance and i must admit the Ducati name.

arent there like 72 virgins involved in the process somewhere too?

maybe im confused with something else...:D

[Desmo-Brian]

lizard, Nice write up, you WERA?


First let me address the brakes, i think your buddies' needed bled, the Brembos are far from shit and will bite you if you're not used to them. They are definitely race/track inspired and since you're a racer they're probably nothing special for you anyway.

I spoke with Jason Etter at the track last weekend, he told me about the supposed service bulletin from Ohlins that said the rear DU-511 needs re-valved for competition/track use. I then spoke with Matt Carr yesterday and he stated that he has yet to see a service bulletin but that re-valving the shock would in effect make it a DU-515, giving it a bit more high speed damping.

As for the head shake it sounds like you needed some more preload in the rear and/or the ride height raised. The forks are also sensitive to rebound damping, taking a bit out probably would have settled the bike during transition and setting up for corners. I was having some of the same issues in the esses setting up for the keyhole but after Jason tweaked it a bit she settled down.

As for the question of is it worth it, that's obviously subjective. Can you get another bike cheaper and tune it to be faster on the track? No doubt, but for someone who mostly rides on the street with the occasional track day it's more about the overall performance and i must admit the Ducati name.

Good points, for sure. I understand the overall chassis set-up needs attention as ANY street bike would when placed on the track. When I get more than one session with the bike, I will do changes in order to get the bike more suited for higher performance riding.

No issues going to the keyhole - I was having head shake when hard exits out of one and onto the front straight. Under hard load and higher corner speed, I will snap or pull the bike upright to get a direction change to maintain speed and exit drive. Usually, power wheelies are a result with a slight bit of the bike crossed up. My race bike never has much issue with this maneuver. The 1098 didn't appreciate it, but it wasn't a big deal - just a bit of a hassle... Direction change and while leaned over, it was fine and well planted...

As far as price, again... Take $23k and use that amount to build a GSXR1000. GSXR wins hands down. Easily. Not saying the Duc is crap by any means. Just saying that Suzuki can win and be on top for less cash and perform most likely better. Not many cases to compare as there are literally no Ducs on any grid in AMA or WERA Nationals. There, in-lines rule the roost and even at a Regional level, the Duc falls short...

Plus, entry cost could be listed as close like I stated, but overall, mechanical side of things show the Duc is more expensive to maintain. Thus, again, it is a matter of preference...

If you are wanting really good Ohlins information, my suggestion is Mike at Thermosman. He's pretty much the go to guy for about any AMA racer out there. If there's a service bulletin, he may not be aware as it is a street based set-up, but he'll be able to help a ton.

[FasDuc]

Not many cases to compare as there are literally no Ducs on any grid in AMA or WERA Nationals. There, in-lines rule the roost and even at a Regional level, the Duc falls short...




What about Pegram on the 848? Or are the AMA nationals a different class?

[yotaman88210]

Flis did good last year...

[Desmo-Brian]

What about Pegram on the 848? Or are the AMA nationals a different class?

I was refering to the 1098, but even with Larry vs. what, 4 other factory bikes, he's not winning... FX isn't a fair place to compare as it is a somewhat endless amount of money to be put into the bikes. If anything, Larry's bikes fall short to the budget the Japanese teams have.

[Desmo-Brian]

Flis did good last year...

Again, not wanting to compare Superbike based machines. I want to keep it in Superstock based mindset...

Superstock GSXR1000 vs 1098S

Now, even at the 1098R that actually has everything you could ever want, $40k vs a GSXR1000 and a $4ok budget falls towards the GSXR moreso...

[Desmo-Brian]

lizard, Nice write up, you WERA?


First let me address the brakes, i think your buddies' needed bled, the Brembos are far from shit and will bite you if you're not used to them. They are definitely race/track inspired and since you're a racer they're probably nothing special for you anyway.

Forgot to address the brakes...

Yes, they had the lever too close to the bar at the start. Thus, the pull wasn't enough for what I wanted. Even at where I'd want it, they were good. Nothing bad there. BUT, again, with a race bike with SS lines and Vesrah Supers, they feel as closely compared to the Brembo set-up. Point is, they're really good and I liked them. Damn good, but the whole worry about them being too bitey at a further reach wasn't warranted. At full out, they felt perfect and similar to what I prefer...

[owndjoo]

Flis did good last year...

yea, in the v-twin classes....;)

his times on the 999r weren't up to par for the 600 classes i race in.

[Chrisoh]

I actually beat Flis this weekend at Nelson. When I came gained a bunch of ground in the kink and into 12 I made a test run in the kink the time before, but knew I was to far to make the pass.

Next lap I set it up at the exit to the carosel and made the pass. He spanked my times at Nashville by 1+ seconds. I bet he beats me bad again at Grattan.

[owndjoo]

was the track not very good or something? last year 1.10-1.11's didn't get me in the top 5. if i can grow a pair i'm shootin to see sub 1.10's

[Chrisoh]

It was green from all the rain Saturday, and T4 is worse, and the run into the carosel is a bit worse.

But other then that it isn't that much worse. Gaige, Bennett, and Blake Kelly (I think that was who) were able to run 8s.


But in the 1k class with only 9 starting it isn't too hard.

If I can't get past this plateau this year and get faster on the whole I am going back to trackdays.